Off Road Forums On Planet4x4 banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For those of you who are interested in putting full hydro steering on your trail rig.....


Full hydro steering is NOT for the street!

The steering is too touchy for street use, and in most states its illegal not to have a mechanical linkage between your steering box and your steering axle.

This isnt towards any one person here on the board, but many people have seen it on the buggy and liked it, im just saying it is very unsafe to run it on the road.


Yes desert racers use it at high speeds, but they have thousands of dollars into there steering system! And that is still illegal on the street!


Now if it is a full on trailer queen, then go for it!! :beer:


Every reputable 4wd shop around will tell you this same thing, many shops will not even sell the products do to liability. :scared: [/b]
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
The steering is too touchy for street use
Adjustable

in most states its illegal not to have a mechanical linkage between your steering box and your steering axle.
Show me the law here.

and... :finger:

I like the idea of using a double ended ram to replace the entire Tie rod myself. That seems to work very well on Willyswanter's rig.



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Matt, if you use it, let me know....

I dont want to be there when you do!

It may work ok, for just crusining, but in an emergency situation, they have proven to fail!


HBRK 4x4 will not sell any full hydro parts to anyone, knowing that they plan on using it on the street!

If someone does buy it, and they use it on the street, they will no longer be a customer of ours......

We feel that strongly about it!!
 

·
Site Supporter
Joined
·
2,286 Posts
I can understand why HBRK would say that but in Idaho there are roadgoing trucks with full hydralic steering. At least where I am from there are and they are street legal. A rock quarry I worked for had some dumptrucks that were street licensed and had full hydro steer They were made by Interational although I would imagine they are fairly rare birds they were setup like tractors, motor runs hydralic pump and hydralic pressure runs everything else :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,268 Posts
also, there are a few NEW cars out that have no mechanical steering linkage at all... it is full electronic servo vontrolled steering. Idaho doesn't have a law that states you have to have a mechanical linkage, and most states are getting rid of theirs to allow for the semi's and new cars that have drive-by-wire technology. ******* hydro-steer IS dangerous, but a well executed steering setup is no more dangerous than full mechanical. both have parts that fail, it's just a matter of making it work good and designing it well.
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
OK, its time for some tech.

Now why are they not good for the street? Is there a common failure point?



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
With out a mechanical linkage to your axle if you loose power in any way you loose steering!

Belts, Pump, Engine not running, Bursted hose.....


That for one, anyone who thinks they can turn the wheel with the motor not running, when the buggy is done, come on down! And I have a steering valve that is matched perfectly to a balanced double ended ram. The total steering setup on my buggy is somewhere around 2k :scared:

And i still cant turn the wheels when the engine is off!


Second....

If you use a single ended ram, it takes more fluid to turn one way vs the other. This means that on average it take 1.5-3 turns more to turn one direction than the other.

With this, while driving down the road at 60, you may turn the steering wheel a quarter turn to move left, but if you twitched the wheel, you may have just moved 3 lanes to the right.



Third.....

There is no road feel in the steering wheel with hydro. During an emergency situation, people will get into a "Tank Slap" steering and end up in an accident.


You can dump a few thousand bucks into a steering setup that will work for high speeds, but i still wouldnt run it on the street.

Many dont know this, but a pump has a big play in your hydro steering. Many pumps will cavitate at a certain RPM. When this happens, you loose steering pressure until you hit another RPM range......I have had this happen to me in the past, just mobbing downa dirt road and i lost my steering!


I will tell you this from experience, I have driven many vehicles with hydro steering.......Lots of trail rigs with this set up too.

I couldnt safely drive them over about 20-30mph! Including my own rig.


Most of our rigs have some sort of soft suspension, large tires, big lift........All of these with a uneven steering, or a quirky steering can ruin your day pretty fast, as well as other people on the road.
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
I think the quirkyness and other mechanical issues are something that can be solved,

But, with the motor dead, so are you, type of logic is solid. You must be able to keep steering at all times.

So where is a full hydro really needed? I would think that for 98% of the wheelers out there, a ram assist is all that is needed.

Do people go full hydro on a buggy because its easier to run lines then build a mechanical linkage?

Is it stronger?



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Site Supporter
Joined
·
2,286 Posts
Some orbital valves do let you retain steering if you lose your pump hoses etc. This is a fact I grew up driving tractors most of which had hydralic steering. Lost the hydralics more than once, the caveat of course is that is very hard, no, like throw your body into it hard to steer you would not be able to avoid an accident. You might be able to get to the side of the road. No road feel oh yeah all you can feel is nothing. How about doing some inovataing Shane and figure out an electric steer you could probably regulate the power enough to turn the tires really well. :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
I could see a geared down stepper motor for steering but it would not have the strenght for offroading IMHO.



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Full hydro in the rocks in a buggy is the shisnit!

:thumb:

But with all of the tube chassis and crazy suspensions we can out travel a normal drag link, and it is very tough to mount a steering box to 1.5" tubing :mrgreen:


One finger turning in the rocks with 40's at 8psi is nice :thumb:

But i have lost a belt while on the trail mashing down a dirt road, i though i was going to roll my old green buggy! I could hardly turn it!


But matt you are right, the quirkiness can be worked out of the steering.........But i havent meet anyone here in Idaho that is willing to put our the cost of the high dollar steering components to set it up right!

I mean people have a hard time paying $300 for a hydro assist unit, let alone the 2k or more for the correct full hydro unit.


Most people will take there existing saginaw pump, put a 2x8" Chief single ended ram on it......and some valve that they got from the forklift junkyard............

Not a very good setup at all, it barely handles the rocks like that!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Im not trying to sound like an ass on here, there has just been alot of interest in the Hydro steering setups....

I think some knowledge and tech was needed! :thumb:
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
For a long travel, tube buggy, or just long travel, it does make sense.

I wonder if in some cases its just a fad like other things that I have seen. Its cool, so people want to run it.

But matt you are right, the quirkiness can be worked out of the steering.........But i havent meet anyone here in Idaho that is willing to put our the cost of the high dollar steering components to set it up right!
I think a lot of that is more introduction to the whole concept and the cost relation to the actual need. When you find out how much it really is, you think "is it really needed". That is where I am at with linking up my vehicle. I can half ass it with junkyard springs or something but I dont want to. The price of the coilovers make me wonder if its worth to 10% better ability, if that, on a hobby level where some good leaves and a tract bar will get me pretty good. I've seen quite a few link systems that were put together bad enough that the leaves would have been better. But there is no arguing that a good link system can outperform a leafe system. If you are willing to spend the money.

I think these two areas are similar. You can get stuff off a forklift and get a functioning system, but, is it worth it?

You are right, some things should not be half assed.



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Going Postal
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
Rudezuk said:
Im not trying to sound like an ass on here, there has just been alot of interest in the Hydro steering setups....

I think some knowledge and tech was needed! :thumb:
Education is the root of all power.

Why not write an article about it with all the pro's and cons?



Planet | 4X4 | Forum
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
Whether hydro is legal or not, is not the issue.

Whether hydro is safe or not, is also not the issue.

In court, it's called "product liability" and it's something all retail businesses must worry about.

That's why lift manufacturer's are being sued when a lifted truck crashes into another vehicle. It's why bars are being sued when they pour somebody one too many and they hurt someone, or something. etc, etc.

However, the burden of responsibility lies with the business to evaluate it's customers and their intended uses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
183 Posts
Sandman said:
You are right, some things should not be half assed.
would this go under the scary suspension category.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes it would!

Yes there are many people who put stuff on there rigs that is booty fab, and unsafe......

Its called population control, but the bad part is these idiots usually hurt someone else in the process. :banghead:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
DougK20 said:
However, the burden of responsibility lies with the business to evaluate it's customers and their intended uses.
Exactly! That is why i stated in this that if we know that people are going to use this on the street, we will not sell it to that person!

We dont want to be held responsible for there stupid mistakes!!!!!!
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top